Economy balance discussion

[cbocchi]

(05-12-2017, 12:54 AM)JohnSins Wrote:

(05-11-2017, 09:46 AM)cbocchi Wrote: The situation before the last change:
-i earn 10K$ with the alt farming in less than an hour. I never checked the time precisely, but it was FAR less (TEN ALTS?!?! Devs got rid of farming only because people like you abused it, they weren't concerned with others who had like 1 or 2 alts, so that's on you)
-with that money, generated out of nothing, i can have fun. Buying things, tipping at the dancers, renting room, and so on. (The money was generated out of your time and energy, its called labor)
-the result is: a small amount of time in generating cash, and then fun. I don't know about you, but fun is the purpose, when i play a game.

The situation AFTER the last change:
-i still need ingame money (After making 10k a day, i doubt you really "need" more money. I met people on here that "needed" to make a mill too....)
-i still generate it out of nothing. Doesn't matter if it is a minigame or something else. It's just created (Its generated out of real cash, or labor)
-now the process is MUCH slower. For example, in the glory hole minigame , i never earned more than 250$. To earn that, i spend somethinglike 7 minutes (Rodeo yields the best money output per x amount of time, try that)
-i know that i'm not good at all, but you know what? i don't like the minigames. I am here for fun, not for the minigames. (no one likes the mini games, but that doesnt mean its ok to cheat [in essence])

Red=Me
Are you trying justify your exploitation of the game because its not fun earning money?.... What do you do in other games if it requires time and energy to get money? What about in real life?  The in-game money officially has some worth to it, so the devs aren't going to bring back the alt farming, or else why would anyone pay real money for it. In 10 days, you made $100k, and that's JUST 10 days. Imagine the months you've been doing this for.... so idk how your "bankrupt." The harshness of my critique wasn't to offend or make fun of you, but for  you to see the error in everything you have said....

Ok, i have to be more precise. Maybe what i wrote was not clear.

1) I play the game for fun. It means that i play the game for the interaction with other people. Interaction of different kinds, but nothing more than that
2) I don't play the game with other purposes. I mean that everything that i don't consider fun, is not my purpose.
3) I don't do it every day. Well, i didn't do it every day, i didn't even do it every week. I did it every now and then. 10K are way too much to me to spend every day. I just did it this way because i was comfortable with it. With comfortable i mean: reasnoably little time to do it, with a reasonably great outcome.
4) It is not called labor. Labor is different. With labor you produce goods or services, and sell it for money. Here i am not producing goods, i am not producing services. I am producing nothing. If i print a newspaper and sell it, i produce a good. If i carry you the newspaper somebody else is printing, or if i give you a massage, or so, it is a service.
5) AGAIN: i am here for fun! This is NOT real life. In real life i love my job, and my real life is not of your concern. 
6) AGAIN: i am here for fun! As i wrote in my previous post, i am NOT here for minigames, i am NOT here for labor! I don't care about the conomy, if a game is BORING to me, it cannot be FUN.

so again, WTF? and not only just about the game, but WTF is so difficult to understand? i don't want to cheat, i don't even want to be honest. Being honest is not what we are talking about here. In real life, i could understand the point about being honest, because if i find a way to creat a resource out of nothing, especially if it is prohibited to do so, i am creating a situation which is bad for a number of reasons, and i AGREE with those reasons. But here, in this game, outside of real life, I want to spend the fun part of my day just having fun! If i am supposed to do something which is not fun, well that's not fun. Is it clear now? What to me is fun, to me is fun. What to me is not, to me is not. 

My point is: if i need to spend all that time in "Labor", this is not fun anymore. It is "labor". I am not complaining, because, as i said, the game is not mine. The owner of te game is free to do whatever he/she/they want to do with it.

But if the purpose of a gamer is fun, to me this is the wrong step.
If the purpose of a gamer is spending time for doing a repetitive boring action just to be able to do something else, well, this is a great step.

PS: there is some sarcasm in my post, just in case someone else finds it difficult to see it.

[Joabna_Smith_Old]

(05-14-2017, 03:43 PM)cbocchi Wrote: Ok, i have to be more precise. Maybe what i wrote was not clear.

1) I play the game for fun. It means that i play the game for the interaction with other people. Interaction of different kinds, but nothing more than that
2) I don't play the game with other purposes. I mean that everything that i don't consider fun, is not my purpose.
3) I don't do it every day. Well, i didn't do it every day, i didn't even do it every week. I did it every now and then. 10K are way too much to me to spend every day. I just did it this way because i was comfortable with it. With comfortable i mean: reasnoably little time to do it, with a reasonably great outcome.
4) It is not called labor. Labor is different. With labor you produce goods or services, and sell it for money. Here i am not producing goods, i am not producing services. I am producing nothing. If i print a newspaper and sell it, i produce a good. If i carry you the newspaper somebody else is printing, or if i give you a massage, or so, it is a service.
5) AGAIN: i am here for fun! This is NOT real life. In real life i love my job, and my real life is not of your concern. 
6) AGAIN: i am here for fun! As i wrote in my previous post, i am NOT here for minigames, i am NOT here for labor! I don't care about the conomy, if a game is BORING to me, it cannot be FUN.

so again, WTF? and not only just about the game, but WTF is so difficult to understand? i don't want to cheat, i don't even want to be honest. Being honest is not what we are talking about here. In real life, i could understand the point about being honest, because if i find a way to creat a resource out of nothing, especially if it is prohibited to do so, i am creating a situation which is bad for a number of reasons, and i AGREE with those reasons. But here, in this game, outside of real life, I want to spend the fun part of my day just having fun! If i am supposed to do something which is not fun, well that's not fun. Is it clear now? What to me is fun, to me is fun. What to me is not, to me is not. 

My point is: if i need to spend all that time in "Labor", this is not fun anymore. It is "labor". I am not complaining, because, as i said, the game is not mine. The owner of te game is free to do whatever he/she/they want to do with it.

But if the purpose of a gamer is fun, to me this is the wrong step.
If the purpose of a gamer is spending time for doing a repetitive boring action just to be able to do something else, well, this is a great step.

PS: there is some sarcasm in my post, just in case someone else finds it difficult to see it.

Allright then, if you insist on seeing this communicty as a game. Look at it like any other mmo. For instance World of Warcraft. A part of the game is doing quests, even easy ones, to gain loot. the loot helps you do other parts of the game. Raids, pvp, you name it. But to be good at the ''fun'' parts of the game, you have to invest time in grinding and grinding to get the gear needed.

You need money to do what you think is fun. Thats ok. We all need cash for something. But just like in WoW, you cant just do raids without putting the time in and collect needed gear. In MnF you need to collect some money. 
Alt Farming to get money is like hacking in WoW and giving yourself exp and gear. Its a way around the intended way of the game. And yes, we all want to play the fun parts of the games, but using means not intended by the makers to skip the path and head to the reward is, in fact, cheating.

Lots of people have found ways to earn money besides the minigames. Like stripping, auctions and challeging people for rodeo. some girls and guys sell pictures in return for money. But honestly, just cheating it in is very lazy.
And in my experience, delaying the fun, as you call it, will make it better. Just like sometimes in sex you shouldnt cum right away and let it build a while yaknow?

Alt farming was a loophole in the rules, the devs patched the hole up. Thats all what happens. Now the community get to search for new ways to earn money.

[Zephyr]

Let’s be clear. In game money was easy to get by alt farming. It is still easy to get if you have rl money to pay for it. So the point was to pay the developers so it has not stopped people having an “unfair” money advantage.
Alt farming brought in money to game that was passed around. If someone could easily replace $1000 they might give it to a stripper who could then buy an outfit. Now she has to play a game to get that $1000 because that is less likely to happen. Auctions are over because no new money is coming into the game.

People want to meet and chat here not compete so not sure a comparison with WofW is good.
But you can still cheat: you now have to pay the developers to do so.

[carnacien]

the wow comparision has some truth, but it also misses the main reason i dislike the mini games: its because they re totally asocial: u do not see it someone pmed u, if u were waiting for a person, and u cant talk to anyone while doing it. Thats why it s a chore, and not something a little diferent that u have to do, while raiding in wow is very much playing with friends, or meeting new people.

I certainly agree its the devs rights to make it the new reality of mnf btw, but it is my opinion that they went too far the other way, from "free money for all" to "money is precious, think twice before spending"!

[Inala]

I think that most of the people talking in this thread are missing one point: the game is flooded with cash. There are probably thousands of millionaires and they are still spreading their money around. Auctions are still going on, prostitutes are still being hired and good dancers are still getting lots of tips (even some bad ones are).

If someone wants to get easy money he/she just has to go to some auctions. There they can socialize a bit and get paid.

And about the thing of coming to the game just to have fun and not spend time playing some boring minigames... well that is the game system. If you don't like it maybe this is not the game for you. I bet that the system can be improved in many ways and for sure it eventually will get better, but right now it is what it is. You can take it or not, that's everyones choice.

Also nobody is busy socializing or having sex 100% of the time. There are times when none of your friends are online and the people around is just boring so what to do? Minigames!!! In my opinion playig them in those breaks is the right way to use them. I go to one minigame and play one round, then check pms and my friend list and if notihg interesting happened i just repeat. Easy, productive and even entertaining to some point.

[ThunderD]

(05-15-2017, 12:21 PM)Inala Wrote: Also nobody is busy socializing or having sex 100% of the time. There are times when none of your friends are online and the people around is just boring so what to do? Minigames!!! In my opinion playig them in those breaks is the right way to use them. I go to one minigame and play one round, then check pms and my friend list and if notihg interesting happened i just repeat. Easy, productive and even entertaining to some point.

Yes...but there are also people who stay logged for like 2 hours...and not every day

Time is precious

Also for males it's more difficult to earn money...and they usually have to spend more!

Personally I don't have a problem with money right now but I'm very frugal

[Inala]

(05-15-2017, 02:18 PM)ThunderD Wrote: Also for males it's more difficult to earn money...and they usually have to spend more!

Why have men need to spend move money? You are not the first one that said to me something like that and i still haven't got a good answer for it.

Is it because men buy more clothes than women? It can't be that, you'd be surprised about how many i have xD

Is it because you have to pay for having sex? Then you are doing something wrong or making bad choices.

Is it for the rooms? Use the motel!!! Or even the showers xD

Tips to the dancers? Well, i could understand that... to some point. But that is not something that you need to do, at least not often.

Any other reasons? I'd really like to hear them

[ThunderD]

(05-16-2017, 06:56 AM)Inala Wrote:

(05-15-2017, 02:18 PM)ThunderD Wrote: Also for males it's more difficult to earn money...and they usually have to spend more!

Why have men need to spend move money? You are not the first one that said to me something like that and i still haven't got a good answer for it.

Is it because men buy more clothes than women? It can't be that, you'd be surprised about how many i have xD

Is it because you have to pay for having sex? Then you are doing something wrong or making bad choices.

Is it for the rooms? Use the motel!!! Or even the showers xD

Tips to the dancers? Well, i could understand that... to some point. But that is not something that you need to do, at least not often.

Any other reasons? I'd really like to hear them

Definitely not for clothes But for rooms, tipping, paying for sex, etc.

Usually the boys have to pay for the room and some girls even sell sex (also auctions, etc.)

Almost every time, I have to pay for the room, even when the girl approaches first..and from what I heard it's a pretty common thing.

Like I said, I'm frugal (I never pay for sex and I never tip) so personally I don't have problems with money and I don't care about the "boy should pay for the room" routine (I have to spend the money in some way xD)...but the economy of this game is definitely "easier" for girls

[cbocchi]

(05-14-2017, 05:09 PM)Joanna_Smith Wrote: Allright then, if you insist on seeing this communicty as a game. Look at it like any other mmo. For instance World of Warcraft. A part of the game is doing quests, even easy ones, to gain loot. the loot helps you do other parts of the game. Raids, pvp, you name it. But to be good at the ''fun'' parts of the game, you have to invest time in grinding and grinding to get the gear needed.

You need money to do what you think is fun. Thats ok. We all need cash for something. But just like in WoW, you cant just do raids without putting the time in and collect needed gear. In MnF you need to collect some money. 
Alt Farming to get money is like hacking in WoW and giving yourself exp and gear. Its a way around the intended way of the game. And yes, we all want to play the fun parts of the games, but using means not intended by the makers to skip the path and head to the reward is, in fact, cheating.

Lots of people have found ways to earn money besides the minigames. Like stripping, auctions and challeging people for rodeo. some girls and guys sell pictures in return for money. But honestly, just cheating it in is very lazy.
And in my experience, delaying the fun, as you call it, will make it better. Just like sometimes in sex you shouldnt cum right away and let it build a while yaknow?

Alt farming was a loophole in the rules, the devs patched the hole up. Thats all what happens. Now the community get to search for new ways to earn money.

 But honestly, just cheating it in is very lazy.

Honestly i don't care. First of all, i am not here to discuss your opinion about me, so if i am lazy, bad, dishonest, well WHO CARES? This forum is not about me, it is about the game. I don't really care if someone from the other side of the world thinks that i'm a bad man. Really.

And in my experience, delaying the fun, as you call it, will make it better. Just like sometimes in sex you shouldnt cum right away and let it build a while yaknow?

About the "Delaying the pleasure" part. When in sex you delay the pleasure you still do something that you like. It's still having sex! You are just delaying the most beautiful part of it, but you are still making it! 

Alt Farming to get money is like hacking in WoW and giving yourself exp and gear. 

Not at all: if i do that in WoW, or in any other similar game, i will be able to RUIN other people's game! If i get stronger than you and kill you everyday, just because i cheated, that's wrong, because YOUR game experience will be bad for MY fault. Here There is no problem , for no one. I am not stopping you from having sex, interactions and so on. You will just play happily as always. You would not even notice that!

 Look at it like any other mmo. For instance World of Warcraft. A part of the game is doing quests, even easy ones, to gain loot. the loot helps you do other parts of the game. Raids, pvp, you name it. But to be good at the ''fun'' parts of the game, you have to invest time in grinding and grinding to get the gear needed.

In World of Warcraft, or in any other farming-involving game, correct me if i'm am wrong: if you are, let's say a warrior, you will not have the main warrior adventure until you farm, before, but you farm with other adventures! You fight now weaker enemies, and later will fight the important ones. But you are having an adventure while fighting! You are not riding a mechanical bull! You don't get completely bored in doing something unrelated to your main purpose! Is it so hard to understand? In Mnfclub you join for interacting with other people, but the "necessary farming" will be something that to me is completely boring.I want to fight, let's say, with a giant troll, but first , for a number of reasons, i have to fight with somebody else. It would still be fighting! It is still part of the story, it is still part of the game! You are not moving your mouse left and right in riding a mechanical bull. If i come here for the interaction, and you make me ride a mechanical bull, it is DIFFERENT! I can't have an interaction while doing that, i can do nothing else! It is completely different from the main purpose of the game!

 Lol, imagine that you come to my restaurant, and ask for something. Even if it is a FREE restaurant.

If i tell you "ok, i will do it, but first please try another food. Just to try, for free." THAT is delaying a pleasure.

But if i tell you "OK, you'll have what you asked, but before go cleaning my house". THIS is something completely unrelated to what you want, something boring, something that you can't enjoy. And i decided to do that, so i am the developer, and so on, but clearly i am not making something that will make you come back to my restaurant. Even if it is a FREE restaurant. 


Alt farming was a loophole in the rules, the devs patched the hole up. Thats all what happens. Now the community get to search for new ways to earn money.

Please don't keep pointing out the obvious things. Even if i know that, i am here for giving my feedback too, and that's completely ok. If we are TALKING about it, if this involves some sort of feedback from the users, then money should be WAY more easy to get. OR it should be more interaction-related and sex-related. Because really, making left-right-left-right-left-right on a mechanical bull is WAY different from roleplaying, from chatting, from having sex in a room, and it means that it is completely different from anything that you can like here. If i have to do it, it should be brief.

One last thing: I am not a stupid, i know that now you can buy money, and that has been made to earn more money even from non-Premium users. But really, focusing on how to make me pay BEFORE focusing on what i pay for, is a bit... unconvincing. This game lacks a good chat, even if it is just an elementary chat system, just a bit better than what you have now. With a sidebar for usernames that are in your same room, for example, or the possibility to read more than just a few lines. The possibility to click on username on a sidebar if you want to see a profile, instead of looking for him/her in the room. Nothing complicated, but just somethng technically better than this. The chat was just one of the possibility, and i know that this is not the technical feedback forum. I am just saying that raising in some way the prices for something, without even making it decent, is a good way to make people go away. I don't want more positions, or more clothes, just something A BIT better. And i know that i can go away, that if i don't like the game i can just not play it. I read that post. Really, Captain Obvious would be proud of you. I think it was Inala, i am not going to check, i am lazy, lol. But if you want a feedback it is to ATTRACT users,or at least to let them stay, not to make them go away.

I hope that it is clear now, lol. Sorry if i always make it so long, lol.

[Joabna_Smith_Old]

Hey again cbocchi,

I might have given off the wrong impression, i was not judging you as a person for altfarming or 'cheating' or only wanting to have fun in the game. We all want to have fun here and i wasnt trying to call you lazy or a bad person. I think some of the adversarial tones in my replies stem from you passinate language that have a certain... negative tone to them.

This forum is to discuss the game as you say, and this thread to talk about the recent change in economy. And i think we can all agree it is at least a bit harder to gain money after altfarming was removed. I personally am against buying in game money with real money, but the choise has been made by the devs and thats what we get now.

While i do not want to go into too much details, but i do think one person alt farming can reduce the fun of others. Throwing money around in auctions, buying outfits or for dancers can make others who ''work'' for the money feel lessened and the inflattion of the currency changes the all around mood of the game, where players without time to farm or who are oposed to it will have a lot less fun.

And yes i agree with you on the minigames, that in their current form they take precious time with little reward. it does feel like an investment tax before you can have the fun you want to have. Making the games more social, allow pausing to do some pm's would be better, adding more games or many of the other suggestions we have had in the forums. But just giving people money for doing absolutely nothing will bring back the problem inflation brings, wich does affect the ammount of fun people have in the game.

your ideas for the chat system are pretty good! you should mention them in the suggestion thread :3