Scam alert

[Emmie]

I'm not saying it's illegal, I'm saying it's in bad taste to try and profit off of someone elses work. If you plan on doing it, there's not much I can do about it, obviously. But I am free to think of it as I wish. I am fully aware that according to EU law, it is allowed to sell on accounts and such. But there's also probably no game that allows it in their ToS, which means it could lead to a potential ban for that account.

That rule is not just there for the company itself. The amount of shit that can go wrong with this is massive. Hacked accounts getting sold was very common on WoW back when I was playing it, probably still is. Where there's thieving profit to be made, the scum come crawling. ^^

[busyman1]

1) I personally am not planning on doing any such thing - I m discussing a hypothetical situation
2) The "illegal" remark was directed to Sharp, not you
3) I am not saying someone should profit form someone elses work - if I put my time into developing my avatar - that's my work.
4) Hacked accounts have nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with corporate-appoved barter (which is what I am suggesting).  With enough knowledge and persistence - anything can be hacked, even MNF accounts in the state that they are in now.
5) I fully agree about the scum, however, where there is profit to be made - entrepreneurs also come running.  That is the nature of business.  And not all of them are scum.  If someone impersonates the MNF officials and charges their own rates - that's fraud.  If someone provides a service as an admitted third-party - as long as the company officials are not against it - that's business.
Case in point - I have two posts on this very forum (moderator reviewed and approved)**, offering my services in purchasing premium gift certificates on behalf of people who cannot use CCBill for whatever reason.  My fees for them are higher than the official price.  I clearly state in my posts that I am an independent third party, and I list all applicable reasons why my prices are higher.  I also provide full explanation of how I am able to use CCBill, so that people who can do the same as I don't have to use my services.  I am providing a valuable service to players (they can now become premium players) and I am providing a valuable service to the game owners (they have more paying customers).  As long as things are fully explained and approved y the officials - everyone wins.


**Note: these posts are NOT approved by the moderators, merely allowed after discussions with the devs. The moderators do NOT approve of these actions.

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Oh, and by the way - I do so enjoy a good argument!    "I would like to have an argument, please!"  

[Sharp]

Selling something for which you do not own any rights is illegal. You own no rights to any part of a premium account. So selling a premium account is illegal.

What you do with selling certificates is fine, because the certificate is a tangible product that has a value, and you actually purchase. It is totally different from subscribing to a service which is intangible with no defined value.

[Emmie]

There was actually a law set by EU that made it legal to sell accounts on mmo's, and I assume that would apply here as well. ToS still applies ofc, so even if you can sell it to someone, moderators would be within their rights to ban that account without refund or anything.

And I'm ofc not coming at you personally. I'm just arguing against such a thing cause I don't like the idea myself. But I think I said before as well, by no means do I represent the developers. So for all I know they could be ok with such things. That would have to be taken up with them ofc! ^^

[Sharp]

(07-20-2016, 09:43 PM)Emmie Wrote: There was actually a law set by EU that made it legal to sell accounts on mmo's, and I assume that would apply here as well. 

All good and well for those countries that are EU member states. All 28 (soon to be 27, maybe) of them. EU law isn't really applicable here. Russia and aside, the majority of players are probably from outside of Europe. And Russia isn't a part of the EU, along with many European countries. So as EU law allowing the sale of MMO accounts is relevant only where all parties involved are based in EU member states, it doesn't aid matters for anybody who is based in a non-EU country.

(07-20-2016, 07:23 PM)busyman1 Wrote: Again, allow me to reiterate - I simply disagree with labeling this action as "illegal", "immoral" or other such moniker - it is *against the ToS*, and as such - the rule for *this particular resource*.  Other than that - it is in no way illegal according to any law.

Disagree all you like. The fact is, fraud is fraud, very much illegal. And there are many laws around the world that state fraud is illegal. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you don't work in a field where knowledge of this kind of think is necessary. Granted, being based in Russia may not help with your understanding of laws (the entire government is a corrupt criminal organisation), so that could explain your ignorance.

[Emmie]

I guess, I have no idea about laws outside of EU tbh. So that's beyond me.

[busyman1]

Emmie - you are cool, I like you. And I didn't take any of that personally, no worries.

Sharp - you are correct, I do not, in fact, work in a field that requires deep understanding of such laws. I am going by common sense. If I put in the time and effort to make something better (add value to it) then I should be, from said position of common sense, able to capitalize on the value that I added to a product or service. Not on the base offering, but on the value added. Because otherwise, if the company declares that value aded by third party is company property - that is fraud, since I received no renumeration from the company for it. Again - with the correction, that if ToS that I have agreed to initially specified that such value is the property of the company - in that case you are correct, and I own no part of it.
One thing I would ask of you, respectfully, of course - please refrain from implying that I am a moron simply because I am Russian or that I live in Russia. I could not care less what you think of the Russian government (actually, I don't much care about your opinion of me, personally, either ), but the remark that "being based in Russia may not help with your understanding of laws" implies that I am a village idiot, to be frank. If you want to call me stupid - have the decency to do so straight out, without politically correct implications

[Sharp]

(07-21-2016, 03:14 PM)busyman1 Wrote: the remark that "being based in Russia may not help with your understanding of laws" implies that I am a village idiot, to be frank.  If you want to call me stupid - have the decency to do so straight out, without politically correct implications

Actually it implies no such thing. It implies that Russia is one of the many countries that where many aspects of freedom are curtailed, including the freedom to learn things that could cause one to turn on the state.

You have in fact inferred a meaning, which is 100% on you and has nothing to do with me. Maybe in future avoid publically make false accusations against people.

And seriously, it isn't common sense to say that something illegal is legal; that is ignorance. Not stupidity, by the way, just a lack of knowledge or understanding.
You see, I do work in a field where this kind of knowledge comes into practice, and I have also queried it (hypothetically) with my sister, who works for one of the biggest law firms in the world. And yes, if somebody were to sell something for which they own zero rights, then that is a criminal offence.

[busyman1]

Ok, Sharp. It appears that we are at an impasse. I keep explaining that I am in agreement with you that one should not sell anything they do not own, and you keep informing me that it is illegal to do so. It is apparent to me that I am unable to properly explain my point of view, and so I cede this ground to you and remove myself from further argument on this subject. Perhaps we can come to a better understanding on another topic in this forum.
On a separate note (this may be off-topic) - and this is just my personal curiosity, not intended to offend or start another argument - where are you getting the information about curtailed freedoms in Russia? I am a US citizen, I have lived most of my life in US, and I have spent the last 13 years living in Russia (without Russian citizenship, by the way, work visas). If anything - my freedoms should be even more curtailed here than those of Russian citizens. However, based on personal experience, I prefer living in Russia. I choose to live here, rather than the US, because I feel less constrained here. I can say what I like, without the hypocrisy of political correctness (a term the meaning of which I still fail to understand). I can do what I like, as long as I do not break the law, without fear of harassment from someone (including the police) who simply don't like what I do. If I go to the office and see one of the women there looking especially pretty - I can compliment her on how lovely she looks, and not worry about a harassment lawsuit - she will actually be pleased I noticed. Nobody bothers anybody here - live the way you want, do what you want, just don't break the law. I cannot say the same about life in US. I invite you to visit Russia, spend a month or so here, and just live - without trying to find "something wrong" with everything, just live.

[Sharp]

People get imprisoned in Russia for saying they are unhappy about how the country is run. That isn't freedom.

And yeah, you have agreed people shouldn't sell something they don't own, but you have continued yo claim it isn't illegal, which it is. No impasse, just perhaps a difference in understanding of the law.